Paul is very clear in Romans that the natural man cannot choose, all by himself to be good. He states this explicitly:

Romans Chapter 7
6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
4For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Note that Paul says explicitly that Christians are delivered from the Law, and are not subject to it.

As he writes in Romans 10:4: “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”

Paul also states in Romans 3:20: “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

Paul’s whole argument in Romans is that all the Law and Commandments can do is to create the conditions for sin to occur. It does not give people the ability to cease to sin. As he writes in Romans 3:

“19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. ”

Paul was very clear about this. A Christian cannot do good of his own volition, and the commandments will not make him good.

Compare: “I guess I thought the issue was pretty simple. We’re all human. Humans sin. Therefore we all sin. However, if we consciously try to do good, we will do some good, but not enough good to keep us from being sinners, because we’re, after all, human. BUT that’s all ultimately okay, because we are saved by grace, not works.”

to

“For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” (2 Nephi 25:23, The B of M)

and

Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.” (Moroni 10:32, The B of M)

Sounds pretty darn close to me….

This issue is simple. Sometimes it just takes a long post to explain “simple.” And just to be clear, I’ve never said the Bible is “inerrant,” just true. Remember, one of our LDS Articles of Faith states, “We believe the Bible to be the word of God, so far as it is translated correctly…”

I just wish the “tall” would describe me also, but I guess I’ll just settle for a full head of hair!

But you go, David. I wish I could work with scripture on my feet like you do

I think it’s hilarious to read posts from two people, each of whom claims to believe that the Bible is “true” and “inerrant,” whatever that means, slice and dice it like a Ronco Bible-Matic.

I guess I thought the issue was pretty simple. We’re all human. Humans sin. Therefore we all sin. However, if we consciously try to do good, we will do some good, but not enough good to keep us from being sinners, because we’re, after all, human. BUT that’s all ultimately okay, because we are saved by grace, not works.

Unfortunately, “tall, bald dude” wouldn’t work for my own father, who is neither tall nor bald. I doubt that “short bearded hillbilly” would go over well, either, though it describes both him and me.

I’ll bite…

Your “no one is good” arguments stems from Romans 3:10-12, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

Notice Paul’s first words of verse 10: “As it is written…” Obviously he is quoting someone. Who? The Psalmist, David. Both Psalms 14 and 53 start this way: “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is NONE THAT DOETH GOOD.” Then the Psalmist states that “God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

What does that mean. Does it mean that man cannot DO good at all? That cannot be. Why can it not be? Because there are several other verses from Paul, even in the Epistle to the Romans, where Paul states that we SHOULD be “good.”

For example: (Capitals added by me for emphasis.)

Romans 11:22, “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”

Romans 2:1-10, “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his DEEDS: To them who by patient continuance in WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not OBEY the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to EVERY MAN WHO WORKETH GOOD, to the Jew first, and also to the cGentile:

Long one, I know, but look at the words I’m capitalized: DEEDS, WELL DOING, OBEY, EVERY MAN WHO WORKETH GOOD…All of these words state that not only can we CHOOSE, but Paul is saying that it is expected that we do so. I mean, how much clearer can it be? “EVERY MAN WHO WORKETH GOOD” will receive glory, honour and peace.

In reality, we find Paul’s emphasis regularly on teaching the Jews that adherence to the Mosaic Law will not save them, but the “goodness” of Jesus Christ, His grace. He had been a member of the Sanhedrin, thus he understood that the Jews of his time, for the most part, thought the law would save them. He knew that to be incorrect, thus his emphasis on grace in his teachings. However, one cannot, when reading all of Paul’s teachings and taking them into context who he is speaking to and who Paul is, determine that Paul ever taught that we cannot choose to act in harmony with the commandments.

My question to you, and any other who states things similar about how we can do nothing is simply this? Will you take only the words of Paul to determine your ideas of the gospel and deny those spoken by the Savior himself, who time after time tells us to “keep the commandments” and even, GASP!, stated, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Not sure how we can be “perfect” if we can’t even be “good.” Do you?

For you to say that no one is “good” or no one can choose to act well (use that word instead of good if it eases your mind) because Paul chose to use this particular word in showing our condemned condition without the grace (or goodness) of Jesus Christ, then I guess we cannot use the word “father” in our vocabulary either. I mean, Jesus stated, “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”

If I use your same literal interpretation of one word, as you have done with Paul’s particular use of one word, then I guess I better start calling my father something else. I wonder if he’d like “tall, bald dude?”

Have a great 4th also! Happy 4th to all!

Just kidding, David: Have a great Fourth of July weekend! But watch those verbs . . . they’re action words, and will get you every time!

Actually Niall it’s your screed were paying attention to much more than your creed. Contrary to many unchurched people out there (those people we are supposedly in need of reaching), there is a difference between the two. All the bickering and name calling doesn’t do anyone any good, and surely doesn’t make your point of view more convincing.

In your response to my post, you stated that all people need to do is choose to be good, and they can be. If this were true, we would not need the undeserved grace of Christ. Paul made very clear that we do not in fact simply have the power to choose the good. If we could, we would not need Christ. Paul also makes very clear in Romans that it is precisely the commandments (the law) that make it impossible to be good. Therefore your idea that we can only be good through the commandments is anti-Pauline. QED.

As for owing an apology to your mother – it is not I who have brought disgrace to your name, but that other David Duke. I suggest you contact him with your demand.

Perplexed:

I’m surprised you’d be interested in the creed of someone who “just got out of prison or the nuthouse”. You’re pretty good at slinging insults for someone who pretends to be above it all.

Enought with this one, really. Sorry if I was disrespectful at all, especially to you, Naill. We try to honor all of our beliefs here, and be respectful, so I was sort of caught off guard when you were going off on my name. It had a been a ridiculous day at work (side note…HSBC bank has the worse customer service of any company I’ve ever dealt with, and I’ve dealt with every major bank and most minor ones….) but that was no excuse to retaliate in kind, no matter what you’d written.

To everyone else, thanks.

If you want to discuss the Pauline letters with respect to a certain passage of scripture, Naill, that’s cool. Let’s just be respectful about it and forget the name calling, OK? Truce? Since it’s pretty obvious that you’re a “grace alone saves” believer, which most here are, I think, then we’re not going to agree, because I believe that the Savior’s grace saves us because we can’t possibly do it ourselves (no human I know of can raise himself from the dead….), but that doesn’t absolve us of our responsibility to keep the commandments and that will determine as well our ultimate destiny in the “many mansions” of our Father. What we’ve found here is that Caleb, Peach, perplexed, Jose and a host of others, including myself, can defend our beliefs from the scriptures, yet we disagree on points. One day, all of us will know…that much I know.

Good night all!

David

To quote old SNL (Mike Meyers as Deiter in the early 90′s):

“Your story has grown tiresome, Niall–this is the time on Sprockets when we dance.”