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An Episcopal Church in Billy Graham’s backyard will host a spring equinox service led by a Wiccan priestess, the Asheville Citizen-Times reports.
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March 22nd, 2010 at 10:31 am
We’ve come full circle. The origin of Easter is in the Spring Equinox festivals of the ancient European folk religions (just as Christmas arose out of the Winter Solstice festivals), and that tradition is now embodied by the Wiccans. I bet it was interesting, particularly if they gave it an Appalachian flair, as they said they would. I love Asheville; it may be the only city in the South more liberal than Lexington.
March 23rd, 2010 at 7:44 pm
Perhaps this is a sign of a future merger. That would be full circle, from pagan to Christian back to pagan. Something to look forward to.
March 24th, 2010 at 11:38 am
This is what we can say pagan’s full life cycle in human’s religious life, pagan – Christian – pagan. Caleb’s visionary full circle on Christianity and Mike’s explanation makes sense. This is what underneath Episcopal vision of inclusion; to create a religion with paganism’s love where all religions are welcome. No need to follow the Bible and evangelism on Holy God. Under the disguise of inclusion in Christian love, it started ground breaking job by electing woman in highest leadership position (Presiding Bishop) in Episcopal Church, followed by electing unqualified adulterous gay and lesbian bishop. Both gay bishop Robinson and lesbian bishop Mary Glasspool are engaged in unmarried sex. Their declaration of open gay did not make them holy. If their sex is not adultery and sin in Episcopal eye, then what does?
March 24th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Well, Julian, all I can say is that if we did let the Wiccans back in, they’d be more interesting that the evangelical blather that your people put out. Let’s get a couple of things straight here. First, you need to get over that holier than thou attitude about gays and lesbians. The reason your African-centered conservative branch of the Anglican Communion is so hot against homosexuality is because they’re engaged in a battle with local Muslims and practitioners of native religions that are highly homophobic. They can’t “sell” Anglicanism to the locals without making it homophobic. You’ll notice that the South African Anglican Church, in a nation not overrun with Muslims and practitioners of local religions is the most liberal of the African churches, along the lines of the churches in the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. So, Julian, get off your high horse and quit quoting the Bible on this; I saw the quote from your man Akinola in the New Yorker article a few years ago in which he admitted that, even if he wanted to make his church more progressive, the rampant homophobia in Africa would prevent it. This is religious politics, pure and simple, Julian, and each side is playing to its home crowd. It’s just here the home crowd is, thankfully, a little more inclusive than those of the third world.
Second, the reason that Robinson and Glasspool are engaging in “unmarried” sexual relations (and I’m not sure that Robinson is; you gotta watch New Hampshire — Live Free or Die and all that, not to mention the state-owned liquor stores that apparently got some of his business, too) is because our society doesn’t allow gays and lesbians to marry in most states. Duh!!! You think they wouldn’t be married if they could???
Third, what’s wrong with the Wiccans? I never heard of a Wiccan charging outrageous interest rates on credit cards, like our nice right-wing Christian owned credit card companies do, though it is against Holy Scripture. I never heard of a Wiccan beginning a war so that good Christian-owned arms companies could make a profit. I’ve never heard of a Wiccan torturing and murdering African-Americans because of their race the way our good Southern Christians used to do. About all you can say against the Wiccans is that they play their drums too loudly and smell too much like Patchouli for polite company. I was honored to be present for Krister Stendahl’s last sermon at Harvard Divinity School before he went off to be Lutheran Bishop of Copenhagen. He suggested the return to some aspects of paganism: He suggested that we ought to think of the Son, yes, but also the Sun.
Open your mind a bit, Julian! Let the Sun shine in! You might like it!
March 24th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Caleb, let us go back to basic question before we debate further on Episcopal decision on Wiccans for better understanding. Are you a Christian? If your answer is yes, what makes you a Christian? My answer is that I am a Christian and my believe is founded with my Church’s traditional teaching rooted with its establishment, apostolic succession as well as the Bible. The Bible I believe is recorded history of God written by Church people who were associated with Christ with the inspiration from Holy Spirit. I appreciate your answer.
March 25th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Yes, Julian, I am a Christian. “My answer is that I am a Christian and my believe is founded with my Church’s traditional teaching rooted with its establishment, apostolic succession as well as the Bible.” I agree with your answer.
You then say: “The Bible I believe is recorded history of God written by Church people who were associated with Christ with the inspiration from Holy Spirit.” I don’t agree with this, and I don’t think a person is required to believe this as a Christian. I love the Bible. Reading the Bible is as natural as breathing for me. And the positive teachings of the Bible, particularly that we love our neighbor as ourselves is the basis of all modern morality. But I take it seriously enough to study it critically, just as I would any other ancient text. For example, you say that the Bible was written by people “who were associated with Christ.” I know of no reason to believe this, and many reasons not to. This is a matter of fact, not faith.
The Canons of the Episcopal Church go to matters of faith, not scholarship. It has never been the policy of the Episcopal Church to attempt to censor or control one’s views on scholarly matters, and matters such as the factual assertion you made about the Bible are matters of fact and science, not faith. The text is what it is, and we can’t determine scientifically whether it is or was, in some form, divinely inspired. What we can do is look at the various textual changes and the style and substance of the writing and make decisions about the writing’s history based on this.
March 27th, 2010 at 1:00 am
Caleb, you said that you believe the Bible, but not as word of God and also you said that it is not required to believe the Bible as a Christian. I find your statement itself is contradicting, correct me if I am wrong. In one hand, you believe the Bible, on the other hand not as word of God, and again it is not required for a Christian to believe. Natural question would come in mind what you found in the Bible that makes you believe the Bible as a Christian. I assume you found something in the Bible in relation to your faith in Christ Who is God. Our Christ is not somebody’s product of imagination in a fairy tale. Your, mine and other Christian’s faith and knowledge about Christ comes from the Bible. It is the source of authenticity of Church teaching. If you believe in Nicene Creed and baptismal covenant, knowledge came from the Bible; you are required to believe the Bible. My friend, do not be inconsistent in your thoughts on your faith, if you do, you would believe any thing as god as people say so with same logic. That is happening now in Episcopal Church, no consistency in their believe system.
The Bible is product of godly wisdom, comprising all worldly as well as heavenly knowledge, such as Physics, Chemistry, Botany, Zoology, Genetics, astronomy, geology, oceanographic, history etc. etc. The book of Revelation is heavenly knowledge. If any human tries to write a book containing all knowledge in concise form, it would be like Bible I believe. I also believe it is not possible by human knowledge to write such a book. In other word if we try to see the Bible in one angle as you emphasize to see with historical perspective and atheist on scientific, we are then in wrong approach. Because of its complexity to understand detail, the Bible teaches to believe by faith only. It is easy and simple approach. By faith in Christ we are save not by our intelligent. God is for everybody, for dummy as well as for scholar. He presented a book for everybody. Those who live by own merits would not find its complete truth and charm.
Your perception about the Bible tells me your book “the bible” is a fairy tale book, you love to read for enjoyment like Shakespeare’s book without fear of central figure of your book and no vision for eternal existence of yourself. In that sense you are not required to believe the Bible as word of God, nor to proclaim yourself as a follower of Christ who is God and hero of your fairy tale book the Bible. If you believe Christ as Hero Who save your life from eternal destruction, you need to believe the Bible as word of God to live accordingly. The Bible is abstract but clear art of God, those who have eyes they can see. Episcopal lost its integrity by too much of knowledge. As people say, “too much of everything is bad”. You are hoping for pagan’s god to come in Christianity before Christ’s 2nd coming as it happened when Israelis started worshiping golden dear not finding Moses with them in desert.
March 27th, 2010 at 9:17 am
Julian,
You are the one living in a fairy tale world. The Bible has nothing to do with the natural sciences, and if you would like to prove it, tell me which chapter and verse describes Newton’s second law of thermodynamics, or Darwin’s theory of evolution by means of natural selection, or Copernicus’s heliocentric theory. The Bible is a BOOK. It was written by MAN. And there is no evidence, zero, nothing, that shows its writers were inspired by a divine being. You accept these beliefs probably because your parents accepted them, who accepted them from their parents, who accepted them from their parents. No one knows the real truth; religion is just the lie you choose to believe. Why don’t you try thinking for yourself once in a while?
March 27th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
Julian, buddy, I believe that was a golden calf, not a deer (as opposed to dear), but as our discussion about the drunken grizzly bear armed with the Ak-47 showed, you may not be much on animal husbandry. However, let’s remember the point of the story: One is not to worship idols, be they bovine, cervine, or (with a nod to the big boar’s head at Billy’s Barbecue) porcine. The problem is that you have made the Bible YOUR golden calf.
You seem not to care about the impact that any Biblical rule has on society, or how it might actually hurt people; you seem interested only to what degree the rules are followed. This may be some form of Christian fundamentalism, but it is hardly mainstream Christianity. The essence of Anglican theology and scholarship is the middle way, the way of compromise and acceptance, not the way of shoving someone’s ideas down another’s throat. I have no problem with their being an evangelical movement, or God help us, even a fundamentalist movement, within the Episcopal Church. In fact, I like the fact that we have diversity. What I can’t abide is these folks saying that their beliefs are the norm, or that their beliefs are the only truly Christian beliefs.
You say: “If you believe in Nicene Creed and baptismal covenant, knowledge came from the Bible; you are required to believe the Bible.” Again, Julian, your knowledge of history is apparently from the same source as your knowledge about calves and bears. As an aside, I’ve never raised bears, but I’ve raised lots of cattle, and let me tell you, you can’t learn to raise cattle from the Bible anymore than you can learn to practice law or, as Cheese says, determine the formulas in physics, from it. The Nicene Creed was invented as a shorthand way of expressing the necessary articles of faith BEFORE the Bible was canonized. It was thought that, with the Nicene Creed in place, a formal Christian scripture was not needed. Of course, after we began arguing about what the Nicene Creed meant, we ultimately canonized the Bible, too.
Julian, buddy, I admire the depth of your faith, and your ability to set aside logic and disbelief, but I think you’re taking this Bible thing a bit too far.
March 28th, 2010 at 7:03 pm
Cheese, you are right my family history is in Christian environment family centered, believe whom God unite for marriage no human anger separate, despite family fute. With this concept, my spiritual life is fulfilling and materialistic life is not that bad with God’s grace. But in your case as an atheist you may be raised in a non-Christian family and friend and have been taught in self-centered spiritual environment to survive in a competitive world as natural selection what Darwin observed in his research on “The origin of species”. Alternatively, you lost faith in God in some point of your life, failing to get answer to your prayer from God. You were not be encouraged to get back on track by looking at Christ Who also failed to get His favorable answer from His father the God Almighty to remove the Cup of painful death from His plate for a great purpose. In other word, all causes to believe or not to believe God are natural and challenging to our day-to-day life and depend on person, how he/she see their life. Your way of life story ends with physical death but Christian way of life story beginnings with physical death. Thus, there is nothing to lose in Christian way rather to gain in future after death.
Darwin wanted to be an Anglican priest to serve God Whom he did not see, but ended up believing what he saw with his own eyes, not by inner eyes and formed a theory interesting to know but not necessary a concrete understanding about universe, its origin and effect on our daily life. On the contrary, St. Paul, who used to believe what he sees, killing Christian who were threat to their survival but happened to see an unseen light more powerful than sun light that caused him to be blind while way to his mission accomplish to destroy Christian in Syria. He found the person in sky whom he knew was killed by crucifix and turned his believe upside down opposite to Darwin. If you believe Darwin, why do you not believe Paul? Both are giving testimony of what they saw with their own eyes. One observed and developed a theory, showing formation of different species from a single living and the other saw the first living deity by whom living and nonliving things were created and heard Him talking to him. Can you create a new species in your laboratory with evolution theory if you say Paul’s version is imaginary? Argument stops if you are biased with Darwin
You know science says that visible matters exist in this universe are less than 10% of non visible such as black hole, dark matters etc. and St Paul said that truth in scripture almost two thousand years before. Please be noted science only discovers the truth that are already existed, does not create any new laws and the Bible gives us a comprehensive knowledge containing all fields of truths in concise form. The purpose of the Bible is for spiritual health, not for a laboratory guidebook that you would find description of Newton’s law or Caleb would find perfect historical evidence for resurrected Christ as well as evidence for eternal living showing current living status of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc who died long time ago and those criminals in hell. If it were happened as Caleb and you wanted then Einstein would complete the answer who ignited the Big Bang.
March 29th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
We haven’t come full circle, Caleb et al; we have made LINEAR progress AWAY from pagan half-truths, hints, and guesses, to the fullness of truth in Christ Jesus. Neo-paganism has nothing whatever to do with a “full circle,” but rather with a collapse.
Of course, I will now have to whip all of the slaves I own and trade in New Jersey, having made this shocking relevation that I believe in Jesus more than in the annual cycle of nature. Christian faith, as Caleb will tell you, makes me a slave-trader; and he’s a liberal, so he must be right. I haven’t come “full circle,” therefore I own African flesh. It’s transparently logical…isn’t it?
May the Diocese of Newark go bankrupt tomorrow.
March 29th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
Newark, if you can’t quote the points I make without mis-quoting them, that’s an admission I was right in the first place. Otherwise, you’d quote me correctly and actually deal with what I wrote, rather than your straw man version of it.
And, when I write something, I don’t grind personal axes. I don’t know what went on between you and the Diocese of Newark, and don’t much care, but your constant whining about it and wishing ill will on an entire diocese most of whose members have no doubt never heard of you is a bit bush league.
March 29th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
“You seem not to care about the impact that any Biblical rule has on society, or how it might actually “hurt people”; you seem interested only to what degree the rules are followed.”
Caleb, biblical rule that hurt people’s free enjoyment is your real pain I believe, that makes you to believe that the Bible is not word of God. I wish you were right. To tell you the truth I am a light cigarette smoker, smoke one pack for about 3 days, I know how painful it would be if congress pass a bill prohibiting smoking in all places. It is well known facts established by health survey that smoking is # one killer diseases if not stop all together. What the Bible speaks about for certain that immoral sex, if not controlled by repentance would sure lead to spiritual death, if not physical death.
March 29th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
As an old tobacco farmer myself, Julian, I can only say thank you for smoking. Just remember that every puff you take puts food in the mouths of the children of Kentucky tobacco farmers.
What I had in mind, though, was your apparent lack of concern about the effect policies such as a ban on gays and lesbians in the church have on these folks. You talk about “immoral sex,” which I suppose is a definitional term: Immoral is whatever we say it is. But what about sex between gays and lesbians in a committed relationship, perhaps who are even married if their state allows gay marriage? The only thing making this immoral is a two thousand year old rule against gay and lesbian relationships that was propounded by homophobic males in a society that had no paradigm for equality in relations between gays and lesbians.
March 29th, 2010 at 6:40 pm
There you go again, Julian, pretending you know everything. For the record, I was not raised in a “self-centered” spiritual environment and brainwashed into believing that selfish competition is the sole reason for my existence. That is a stereotype propagated by theists to paint a portrait of all atheists, agnostics, nihilists, satanists, pagans, and secular humanists as “evil” people. I am not a stereotype. I am a human being. Don’t assume you know my entire life story, because I decided to refer to myself as an atheist.
I pity the fact that you place so little value on your natural life, believing your life will really begin after you die. I really think you’re mischaracterizing the finality of death. Your conception of the after-life is a fantasy realm where consciousness is eternal, “evil-doers” are punished for their sins and “saints” are rewarded for their belief. It’s novel, really it is, but I don’t think it’s that simple. You are afraid of total death, Julian. By total death, I mean the death of the consciousness in addition to the passing of the physical body. Your fantasy land hypothesis is an escape route from having to face your fear of total death; it gives you an out route from having to worry about the death of your consciousness and your memories. I believe consciousness is not eternal; it is only present while we’re alive, and when we die, our consciousness dies with us. I can remember nothing from the period of time that passed before I was alive; I think it’s safe to say I’ll remember nothing after I die. Is this a pessimistic view of reality? Perhaps. There is no eternal happiness, but there’s also no eternal suffering. Happiness and suffering are states of mind, and it requires a conscious mind to experience them. So whether or not you view the glass as half-full or half-empty is a conscious decision; it is just as easy to think the opposite. It isn’t good or bad. It just is. I just hope you take care to enjoy the remainder of your natural life and explore this fascinating world we live in a little less judgmentally while you still have the opportunity.
As for evolution, you don’t seem to understand it. Darwin’s theory is not meant to allow us to design new species in a lab. It is meant to explain why some species appear to thrive in certain environments while others go extinct and how the ubiquitous struggle to survive and reproduce affects the natural world we observe. And if you think it’s a novel concept with no practical use in the real world, I suggest you google “asian carp.” They are reeking havoc on the species of the Mississippi River and quickly making their way up to the Great Lakes. The species of fish they eat have no natural defenses to protect themselves, and the old predators of the Mississippi, facing new competition from the new predator, must struggle hard to survive and reproduce with a smaller food supply overall. As a result of one new addition into an ecosystem, the food chain is disrupted, and several species will face the prospect of extinction. Eventually, evolution will strike a balance once again, but it won’t be anytime soon. You must remember human beings are inseparably tied to the food chain. Our own survival depends upon maintaining a balance. When it is disrupted by changes in the environment, our own survival can be threatened.
March 30th, 2010 at 10:30 am
Caleb, there you go, advising me to smoke, you are unaware that indirectly you are helping tobacco related diseases to spread in the society. What medical science has learnt by years of research you are pushing society again in that dark side for mere economic reason for one or two states! But on the other hand those tobacco grown states can look for alternate cash crop such as cotton, soybean, etc instead of tobacco for decent life. Afghanistan can look for to grow wheat, maize, cotton, etc instead of growing poppy for drug.
For thousands of years people around the world have been benefited by discouraging and containing same sex activity, you and Episcopal Church are now pushing the society to that darkness again for few emotionally disadvantage people of gay and lesbian. Those people may find alternative way to express their LOVE for which society and they themselves would be benefited, such as dedicating life for service of mankind. Embracing the problem is not the solution, finding the alternative beneficial for both individual as well as society is the challenge.
March 30th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Julian, buddy, I was only joking about the smoking; even here in Kentucky we have moved on, though I can’t imagine anyone growing cotton in Bourbon County, Kentucky, but so be it. The end of the price support system was the end of tobacco farming as we all once knew it. I suspect that most of the tobacco you smoke came from outside the US anyway, so your stopping smoking, while devastating the healthcare industry, will probably not devastate Kentucky.
You say: “For thousands of years people around the world have been benefited by discouraging and containing same sex activity.” Really? And how did they benefit anyone by doing this? Julian, you have these ideas that seem like they are based on some Sunday School view of life and religion. Gays and lesbians have been discriminated against for those thousands of years, and you are effectively justifying that by scripture.
How is that any different than the scriptural justifications given by the Jerry Falwells of the world for their support of racial segregation? There comes a time, Julian, when reality ought to pierce even your veil of denial.
March 30th, 2010 at 12:08 pm
By the way, Julian, there are eight states in the traditional burley tobacco growing region, and even more that grow bright or Virginia tobacco, so don’t downplay tobacco’s economic importance.
March 30th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
Cheese, you are not exception to rest of the human family who are under influence of cause and effect force. Do you? As you pointed, I have been influenced by my ancestor’s Christian identity, in selecting my choice for Christianity, so you too have been influenced by your family, friends, or your surroundings to choose atheism. It is very simple knowledge. Our decisions are influenced by some external force, no way of denying that force. If you live and be raised in jungle you would be Tarzan. I don’t know how or why you called yourself atheist, all I said some force influenced in your decision.
Can you tell me who does not have fantasy? If you like Disney Land you have fantasy. Have you seen the movie “The Alice in Wonderland”? Recently I saw the movie with my teenage daughter. I enjoyed the fantasy land. That is real fantasy as you described where there is no life but only imaginations. But fantasy become real when you sense living nature. Many times real seem to be dream, fantasy or unbelievable, what you find Christianity now.
I agree with you, eternal life was fantasy to human before God incarnate to human, beat physical death by 3 days and again became living being, appeared to not one or two people but many for eye-witness. Still He is appearing to many in their vision and answers their prayer. Fantasy became reality for billions of Christian around the world.
Like Caleb, please do not look for historical evidence for Christ’s resurrection or try to tell me it is a make believe story wrote by our forefathers to become famous like many people in today’s world or tell me that I have been indoctrinated by Church people. I am like you, sit opposite to your mental fantasy with full confidence why and how I believed. Please remember there was no video camera at that time, neither could you expect fossils or artifact type of historical evidence proof back to 2 thousand years old by carbon dating. It was eyewitness account passed from generation to generation by Episcopal succession and thru Holy Book the Bible. If you believe family story passes from generation to generation by mouth and written book, Christianity is that story. Those who believe heartily are saved in God’s land, which is no more a wonderland, because we saw a man who came from there. BLESSED GOOD FRIDAY and HAPPY EASTER for those who believe.
March 30th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
Julian sez: “Like Caleb, please do not look for historical evidence for Christ’s resurrection.”
Julian, buddy, it’s not me looking for that, it’s you. Every time you post, you manage to throw in some type of factual argument that the Biblical stories are real. Buddy, it ain’t there. If you believe them, you do so by faith, which is fine, but when you believe something by faith, you shouldn’t try to prove it logically, too.
March 30th, 2010 at 8:35 pm
Julian,
I accept that we are all subject to external forces that ultimately we cannot control and will never fully understand. I just see no point in ascribing human emotions (love, joy, happiness, jealousy, anger, sadness, disappointment, etc.) to those forces.
Did you really choose to be a Christian? Let’s talk about Pop Tarts. If you were raised your entire life eating strawberry pop tarts, your parents only bought you strawberry pop tarts, your parents told you strawberry was their favorite kind of pop tart, and your parents told you you would be damned for eternity if you didn’t eat strawberry pop tarts. Can you really say you were the one who chose strawberry as your favorite flavor of pop tart? How do you know strawberry is your favorite if you’ve never tasted blueberry?
March 30th, 2010 at 10:53 pm
“…but when you believe something by faith, you shouldn’t try to prove it logically, too.”
Caleb, logically I am OK, but scientifically or historically you may say I would not be correct. Please see the logic, because Christ has risen from death all believers, as Christ promise, also believe that we would be raised at the end of this world. End of the world you also believe is not impossible scientifically. Because eyewitness account said that Jesus has risen, I also believe that He has risen. However, if you wait for historical facts and do not believe eyewitness account you may choose to do so as St. Thomas did, and he did not believe resurrected Christ until he put his finger into Christ’s body. Your logic I do not refute. Many people in this world still do not believe that Apollo mission landed in moon surface. What could you say if they do not believe? Your statement above tells me that your way is the only highway.
Cheese, I agree with your strawberry pop tarts analogy. It is applicable not only to me but also to every body, even to you in opposite way. In this case, I would say I am lucky that I was born in a Christian family. When I am grown up, sure I have option now to give up Christianity if I prefer to choose life in other way, which is easier than Christian life. However, Christian life is priceless like mother’s love.
March 31st, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Julian sez: “Caleb, logically I am OK.” Well, Julian, that’s what lawyers refer to as a reference to facts not in the record; there’s nothing in your previous posts that suggests to me that you’re a man of logic, but if you are, then so be it.
What Cheese is suggesting, Julian, is that while we all have the freedom of choice, in practice, very few people make choices that are different from society’s expectations. Do you really think that God hates China, India, and most of the third world, where the vast majority of the population is not Christian? Each of those folks had the same choice you did to become a Christian, and chose not to. Why? Is it because each of them is a hellbound sinner trying to spit in the eye of God? No, it’s because when a person has been raised as a Buddhist, and fourteen generations of his family before him has been Buddhist, he’s probably going to be Buddhist himself.
There are conversions where folks do leave one major religion and go to another one, but they are few and far between. The fact is that culture is the single number one determinant of one’s religious beliefs. Most Americans are Christians, or at least claim to be, not because we are the land of the righteous, but because our nation has a history of promoting Christianity over other religions. Our coins don’t say namaste, or Allah akbar. We don’t have any state mottoes that say “With Buddha all things are possible.” We don’t set up statues of Buddha in public places, or place the five, eight, or ten (take your pick) precepts of Buddhism on the walls of public buildings.
Julian, you say “I would say I am lucky that I was born in a Christian family.” Well, if you think being Christian is the only way to open the gates of heaven, that does make you lucky. However, it makes all those people who didn’t grow up in families or nations that are predominantly Christian in a bad position eternally. I personally don’t think God would deliberately load the dice against someone like that, but that’s me.
Your moon thing reminds me of what Lewis Grizzard said, that his grandmother was the only person left in America that thought the moon landings were fake and professional wrestling is real. And, what is this business you keep saying about eyewitness accounts? I don’t know of a single eyewitness account in the Bible of anything. What are you referring to here?
April 1st, 2010 at 10:28 am
“Do you really think that God hates China, India, and most of the third world, where the vast majority of the population is not Christian?…….Is it because each of them (other religions) is a hellbound sinner trying to spit in the eye of God?”
Caleb, you need to rethink as a Christian, where all human (but you segregated by nation e.g. China, India, 3rd. world, etc but forgot humanity do not have nation of origin) stand in between God and this world. 1) Why did Christ need to shed His blood for many? As stated in Mark 14: 24″This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them. 25″I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God.” 2) Why Peter denied Christ 3 times, despite Christ’s warning few hours before he actually denied Him at last supper and realization came with flood of tears. Reflection of these questions, I hope would answer your question whether or not, God hates China, India etc. You should know our spirit does not have any color or nation of origin, like American, Russian, British, Scandinavian, and Polish etc. We are all human composing same gene.
Today is Maundy Thursday, time for reflection for real meaning of life which is not surrounded by theories, Laws and records only. Unless we believe and love God with our whole heart, soul and with our all strength we won’t get real answer of life. Good luck.
April 1st, 2010 at 12:19 pm
Julian, buddy, I know that you think evangelical drivel is the answer to every question, and maybe to you it is. But try being logical just this once; if you don’t like it you don’t have to do it again.
Follow along with me here. I assume the result of all of your mumbo jumbo is that God wants us to love her and follow her, and in your limited view, that means she wants us to be Christians.
Here’s the issue: If this is true, then why did God place so many people, in India, China, Central Asia, the Middle East, etc., in situations in which they are socialized not to be Christians? That’s why I ask if God hates China. We missionaried in China for a hundred years or more, and the result is that less than 5% of the population today is Christian. I realize that sixty years of religious suppression by the Communists has cut the numbers down, but recent studies show a huge number of Chinese considering themselves members of traditional Chinese religions (taoism, confucianism, buddhism, etc.), while a far smaller number consider themselves Christian.
My point, Julian, and I cringe at the evangelical blather this will no doubt elicit from you, is that maybe, just maybe, God doesn’t require that we all be Christians, merely good people. Otherwise, why would he expect people to abandon hundreds of years of tradition and adopt a new religion, knowing in advance that only a tiny percentage will do so, thus condemning the majority to hell for merely following the lead of their society, whereas in Christian nations, following that same lead brings one that eternal life you seem so worried about missing?
Inclusion, Julian: That’s the real message of Maundy Thursday, not exclusion. Look into it.
April 2nd, 2010 at 11:00 pm
“Here’s the issue: If this is true, then why did God place so many people, in India, China, Central Asia, the Middle East, etc., in situations in which they are socialized not to be Christians? That’s why I ask if God hates China.”
Caleb, my friend, I am surprised that you being a Christian and studying Christian theology you failed to perceive the message Christ intended to give people of the world in His last meal together with His disciples before He was arrested few hours after the meal in the same night. For that reason as well as your dubious faith in Christ, you are easy to say that Christ’s blood shed for many is “mumbo jumbo” and evangelical tricks for conversion.
Your knowledge about Christianity tells me that reading books other than the Bible and Christian literatures would not make any one a theological expertise. You may be expertise in corporate law but not in Christian theology. You should read John 15, 16, 17 and find out 1) who is Jesus? 2) Where did He come from? 3) What was His purpose for coming in this world? 4) Why did God knowing danger for His Son to be killed, sent Him in this world? 5) Is this stupidity or is there hidden purpose sending Christ for entire population, bringing them under one holiness? Caution: your know-all attitude may hinder you getting wisdom from John 16. Hint: God did not place so many people anywhere in this world, neither He helps socializing anti-Christian religions, as you perceived. Remember: God wants to include everybody under Christ’s blood not by sword, but by tears. Please do not think it is tricks for evangelism for you. Christian believes “all that glitter is not gold”, same way, no look-a-alike “Avatar” comes from true God.
I agree with you that your make believe faith, “god for all religions” sounds good but not realistic and it is not a good strategy for maintaining world peace, as you are thinking of. Rather propagate religious freedom for each individual along with democracy. It is holy duty for all Christian to spread good news to bring everybody under one body, not for political reasons but for Master’s wish who created this world. No one keep light under a bed, unless you want to Caleb! Peace!
April 3rd, 2010 at 12:54 pm
Julian, buddy, I’m beginning to realize that logic just really is not your thing. Fine. But don’t think that you have to include a bunch of evangelical blather that you know won’t convince me or anyone outside your evangelical circle in order to make your point.
My point was simply that if God truly wanted all of us to be alike, she’d have made it easier. Your answer to that, to the extent you have one, is more evangelical blather. Just to make this interesting, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt here by interpreting your incomprehensible blather as saying that God didn’t create the problem, nor did she make it worse, and that we all truly do have the free will to change, which is usually the position evangelicals take, though they usually manage to express it a little more clearly than you did.
That’s fine as far as it goes, but my point is that it is silly to suggest that we have free will about things when, as a matter of human psychology, few of will be disposed to use that free will in a manner that goes against our raising and our traditions. And the net result of that is the reality that if you’re right, that only Christians are part of the elect, then God is truly a trickster God, as the American Indians say, a coyote God, who predisposes one group of people, those who are raised in a Christian world, to salvation, and predisposes others, who live in non-Christian societies, to eternal damnation. If you think that’s fair, Julian, fine; I’m sure you have some tortured non-logic to cover it, no doubt complete with chapter and verse citations to scriptures that don’t mean what you suggest they do, but if it works for you, fine. Just don’t try to sell it outside your circle of evangelicals: It won’t play in Peoria, or anywhere else they use logic.
April 4th, 2010 at 11:32 am
Caleb, to tell you the truth I did not find any head and tail of your logic, being Christian you open door for everybody, whether they believe Christ as a savior or not. Your logic is nothing but coyote in sheep clothing. Your selling pitch, “open door policy” in religion, tries to fool people of integrity. To be fair, it is not your fault, because your parish did not teach you well who really Jesus is. Good luck in your search.
April 4th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
Julian sez: “To be fair, it is not your fault, because your parish did not teach you well who really Jesus is.”
Really, Julian? And what do you know of the parish I grew up in or of me? It appears that, having failed to make your points with either logic or blather, you’ve now begun to speak down to me and make personal attacks against a parish whose identity you don’t even know and whose teachings you have no basis for evaluating. I suppose that’s about as intellectually honest as anything else you’ve said.
The problem, Julian, is that you have bought into a particular mindset, which, while calling itself Christian, is in fact a much newer religion, based not on the traditional principles of Christianity, but on the new idea of sola scriptura. If you want to believe in that religion, Julian, that’s fine, and I hope it does well for you, but don’t commit the intellectual sin of believing that your beliefs are the only highway to truth. That is the path to intellectual ruin and spiritual death, and I fear you’ve already walked a long way down that path.
You accuse me of trying “to fool people of integrity,” and yet propose a theology that would eliminate a whole segment of God’s people because of outdated rules that arose in a society nothing like ours. And I’m the one trying to fool people of integrity? Wake up, Julian, it’s not too late! Let some light in!
April 6th, 2010 at 1:37 pm
Caleb, let us test the logic with clarity as you are claiming “you are OK, I am not”: you said by earlier posting, correct me if I am wrong that:
1) You are Episcopal Christian and believe historical Jesus, a man named Jesus lived in Jerusalem about 2 thousands years ago, stirred up the people with his morale teaching. He was a nice guy.
2) But you do not believe that He was crucified by false trial as described by four Gospel writers of the past Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to fulfill prediction written in the Bible and salvation for all human who believe Him. But I understood, ironically you learnt about Jesus from these gospel writers but again you do not believe their writings. Doesn’t it inconsistence to believe part of their writings?
3) You do not believe Jesus’ rise from death after 3 days.
4) You do not believe Jesus Christ is son of God, His kingdom is in heaven.
5) You do not believe resurrection of life after death and communion of saints.
Question: 1) what logic do you have to call yourself as Christian?
2) What do convince you that Jesus were real people not a story?
3) How do you know your god is female that you use pronoun “she” for god?
Please do not spin in your answer, straight answer would be appreciated.
I believe Jesus, His teaching, miracles and bodily resurrection at the end of age is true and real. My sources of knowledge are from the Bible, Christian literature, belonging to a Church and life long personal benefit derived from God such as sound, body and mind relationship.
April 6th, 2010 at 1:51 pm
Well, Julian, first, I think it’s funny that you, someone who (to my knowledge) has never given a straight answer to a question in his life, expects one of me. You ask how I can call myself a Christian, when I don’t believe the same things you believe.
Well, here it is: I’m a mainstream member of the Episcopal Church. Period. Is that straight enough? If you want to know what I specifically believe, I believe that Christians, strengthened by God’s love, be she male or female (and I don’t know any more than you do, Julian, about the state of God’s genitalia, but figure we’ve said “he” for so long, we might want to give the other side a chance) can change the world for the better. What else is there?
Remember, Julian, that the Church of England was designed to include former Catholics, Presbyterians, Puritans, and various other protestant groups, none of whom could agree on the time of day. And you want me to agree to a doctrinal statement? Posh. You should know, Julian, as an Anglican that there are no theological tests for Anglicans, which is rather the rub: You evangelicals want to hijack the Anglican Communion and make it something new, a church based on ideas, not unity. And that won’t work.
April 6th, 2010 at 3:16 pm
“I specifically believe, I believe that Christians, strengthened by God’s love, …….. can change the world for the better. What else is there?”- Caleb
“I’m a mainstream member of the Episcopal Church. Period. Is that straight enough?”- Caleb
Caleb, you started your passage with spin, how can I expect un-spin words from you.
You said that you are mainstream Episcopalians, who believe Nicene Creed, and Nicene Creed is nothing but zest of the total Bible. If you do not agree with me, please show me which part of Nicene Creed does not match with the Bible “period”.
You are shy of declaring unseen God, His Kingdom, and His method of giving free salvation with whom He is pleased. You feel it is sin of intellectual to believe unseen, unproven, untested God of Almighty. You spin again by saying Christians can do better changing world by God’s love, but again you ignored weight of God’s extreme love for His Son to sacrifice for you. You do not believe Christ’s love for your salvation. You say it is evangelical, and through away the truth as unfounded, superstitious, orthodoxy and nonsense. How can we expect from you that you would use God’s love to bring change of the world, when you too have difficulties understanding His love?
April 6th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
Where do you get the idea that mainstream Episcopalians believe the Nicene Creed? That’s your spin, Bro. Julian, not mine. As far as the Nicene Creed being the “gist,” I think you mean, of the Bible, no, it’s not. The Nicene Creed is a specific set of beliefs that the early church adopted. I suspect that not one mainline Episcopalian in ten, if that many, believe it today.
As for the rest of it, that’s just your spin, too. I’ve already said what I believe; everything else is your words, brother, not mine.
April 6th, 2010 at 6:41 pm
Julian,
Why are trying to convince Caleb that he’s not a Christian? Do you find his views heretical? What do you stand to gain if he does admit that he doesn’t like Jesus?
April 7th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
Cheese, there is a segment of Christianity that believes that God is rather like The Great Pumpkin, and that if we don’t believe exactly the right thing, right down to who wrote (in their view) the various books of the Bible, and how many theologians can dance on the head of a pin, we’re not Christians. Period. Julian showed his hand a couple of times early on when he queried whether or not I was worried about my immortal soul. These folks, for whatever reason, really really love the idea that people who don’t agree with them are going to hell.
The evangelicals in the Episcopal Church are rather like the sissy kid on the playground who constantly runs to the teacher for protection: They tried it with the Archbishop of Canterbury, but when he didn’t do what they wanted him to do, they suddenly questioned his authority, asking why England remained the center of the world. You might as well ask a rodeo cowboy why Texas is the center of the world. Now they think that Africa is the center of the world, because African archbishops illegally support them.
When appeal to earthly authority fails, they always have what I call the waggle: They wag that finger in your face and tell you, point blank, that if you don’t believe every word of the Nicene Creed, or don’t think the Bible is the be all and end all of theology, as one fellow who used to post here put it, God will slam dunk you into the eternal fires of hell.
Now, Julian will no doubt wiggle around and claim that he never said any such thing, which I refer to as putting the wiggle in the waggle: The nicer ones never come out and say you’re just a hellbound sinner, but they clearly believe it, but they put the wiggle in the waggle, and wiggle around and say that they’re just preaching the gospel . . .
All in all, Cheese, it’s just a question of whether you think someone can put God in a box. They think you can not only put him in the box, but tape him up so that he can only do what they want him to do. I say, let God out of the box.
April 14th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
1. “They think you can not only put him (God) in the box, but tape him (God) up so that he (God) can, only do what they want him to do. I say, let God out of the box.”- Caleb
2. “The Nicene Creed is a specific set of beliefs that the early church adopted. I suspect that not one mainline Episcopalian in ten, if that many, believe it today.”- Caleb
Caleb, my friend, look! What and how you wrote by your 1st statement about Almighty and Living God, Who is master of everything including you and me, whether you believe or not. Does your writings above showed honor and glory to the creator of heaven and earth? No it is not. I came to know thru your writings only that you and your parish does not believe Nicene creed any more which first thing, acknowledge that God is maker of heaven and earth. But you interestingly claimed in your earlier posting that not only you but also mainstream Episcopalian does not believe Nicene Creed. I won’t challenge you now for your claim that mainstream Episcopalian does not believe Nicene Creed. But I am surprised how a person does declares oneself a Christian who does not believe living God, who is master of all and Jesus Christ is His only begotten Son who died for sins of the world?
Cheese I am trying to help Caleb find himself that his believes as Christian have no integrity with Christian believe. But he is a free man he can believe what he choose to believe, but civil society would judge whether he or the Bible is right for true Christian.
April 14th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
I appreciate the effort, Bro. Julian, but I think I’m on the right track as it is. If you need any help with logic and progressive ideas, let me know. At some point all of this will seem as silly to you as it does to me, and then you’ll have hit the point St. Paul wrote about when you’re ready for an adult form of Christianity. Until then, have fun.
And, Bro. Julian, don’t mistake disbelief in some of the outdated myths and symbols of Christianity for disbelief in God or of her ability to change people’s lives today.
April 14th, 2010 at 3:16 pm
“You seem not to care about the impact that any Biblical rule has on society, or how it might actually hurt people;”
Caleb, the above statement is your main reason, I believe, to disbelieve the Bible and term the biblical story like resurrected Christ as myth in order to protect same sex activities in the society which has been forbidden in the Bible. Is it justifiable to turn away from believing the word of God in the Bible? Is this your “adult form of Christianity”, to believe biblical story as myth? Come on! Caleb, you are showing “crocodile tears” for special disadvantage group of people, who have abnormal sexual behaviors, like many other abnormality in our body. For example, some of us are born with ill temperament, in poor family with nasty behavior but some with good manner, smart and rich family. Can we blame the Bible for this discrimination and for dictating the right path for salvation that may go against my way? Holy God who created all of us have plan for each of us. We all are disadvantage in one way or other, but He would lead us in green pasture no matter what deformity we have in our body, mind and soul.
April 15th, 2010 at 10:01 am
Julian, I am done. If you want to cling to the remnants of fundamentalism, that is your business. I don’t. Have fun, and as I say, when your taste matures, there are lots of resources out there for you.
April 15th, 2010 at 11:42 am
Caleb, debate would go on and on in between so called “liberal” and “fundamental” in religion and again in between “religion” and “atheist” no matter whether we stop or not, until the earth crushed into pieces. All I can see, like basic economic principle we learnt in high school “wants are unlimited” liberalism is also unlimited unlike fundamental. The more you are liberal, the more you want to be. Only time would tell what challenge is coming next after opening the closet of homosexuality. The next challenge it may be by opening up clothing for absolute naked world, but then what! Until then may God open your heart to find wisdom in His word in the Holy Bible and be prepare for end of the individual age.